Tea Nguyen, DPM (00:54.264)

I want to welcome Dr. Lauren Hartman to the podcast. Welcome to the podcast.

Lauren Hartman, MD (00:58.85)

Thank you so much for having me. As I was just saying before we hit record, it's been really lovely getting to know you through your podcast and through your guidance and your wisdom. So I'm excited to have this conversation today.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (01:11.768)

Me too, because I see that you're actually my neighbor. You're not that far away. You're in Berkeley and I'm here in Santa Cruz. And Berkeley has really cool new gastro pub places to hang out. So I now have a second reason to come visit you. We gotta go, yeah, we gotta explore that. But also you have a specialty niche that I find incredibly fascinating on your website, which is beautiful and it's simple.

Lauren Hartman, MD (01:27.178)

Really good food here.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (01:38.86)

And it says here that you take care of adolescents and young adults who have de eating disorders and complex medical concerns. So I want to dive into what you do, but before we get into the nitty-gritty of that, tell us a little bit about your journey into direct care.

Lauren Hartman, MD (01:56.738)

Yeah, and I like you using the word journey, because that is what it feels like, right? It feels like just such a growth process, I think. So you know, I really started very traditionally. Adolescent medicine is a specialty out of pediatrics. And so after residency, I did my fellowship and really only knew a model of like you stay in Academics who are in big health care, and that's where you're gonna practice this specialty. And I was practicing adolescent medicine after fellowship for about 10 years, and I actually was at Kaiser at the time, so big, big healthcare, and was the head of adolescent medicine for Northern California. So it was a big responsibility. There was like 35,000 adolescents that we were. Yeah, I just felt a ton of worry for these adolescents and care and concern. And the pandemic hit. And I think the pandemic really really brought to a head like challenges in the system and where I was feeling like I was really trying to hold a lot together because the needs for adolescents really skyrocketed during the pandemic and the mental health concerns. And as you said, I take care of eating disorders, hospitalizations for eating disorders and kids tripled at that time. So I was just really, really really, really just trying to keep up and trying to tread water and survive is what it kind of felt like. And the truth is, I forgot I could leave. I really forgot I could leave. I mean, the golden handcuffs are a legitimate thing and there were a lot of reasons to stay. But I also found, I mean, I love taking care of patients. I love being in the room with patients. And I found myself at a point where I felt like I was kind of going through the motions and it didn't feel good at all. 

Lauren Hartman, MD (04:17.812)

And, It really took actually I have so you know I started to get some pings about other job opportunities and I was like, like what would that actually look like to leave? And so to be honest, I actually did like before I started my private practice, I joined a startup and I did that for a year. and I think that's important to mention because I

It felt so scared to leave and I really wanted the next thing to be it. And I think it was really in the like idea that I had kind of like loosened the knot of like what my path had to look like. That then when I was like in the startup and realized it wasn't for me, it was actually easier to be like, no, no, we don't stay anymore when we're not like really feeling like we're delivering the care that.

we want. And it was felt like that was an easier move. but I left the startup really not sure what was next. And there were very few models for adolescent medicine. It's a very small specialty. There's like less than a thousand of us in the country. And most of those p jobs are in academics. And there was this one group in New York that I knew about and I had reached out to them and they had been doing it for 17 years and really just helped me see that it was possible and really hear about like, wow, what does that feel like to kind of create care, create a model that's exactly how you believe care should be delivered? My forever North Star is like, how would I want my kid to be treated? What is the care I would want my family member and what would I want that to look like? And so realized like wow, I guess I could try it. And I did have a little bit of a feeling like, you know, I can fall back if this doesn't work. You know, so maybe we just give it a whirl and see how it goes. And but I will be honest, some people said, like, maybe you just wanna start small, like start like use a someone else's doctor's office and you can like rent one of their rooms or

Lauren Hartman, MD (06:35.778)

Do one a day. And I did have that feeling of like, well, if I'm gonna do it, I'm gonna like give it my all. So like, let's just try. And so that was almost three years ago. And I have never been happier, truly, in my professional work. I constantly say to myself, to my husband, like, I can't believe I get to do this. And the last thing I'll say, and I know I'm rambling quite a bit, so feel free to interrupt me. But the last thing I'll say is that I remember being in really big healthcare and one of the conversations that was coming up a lot was I would hear a lot from doctors about retirement. And they would be talking about how many years I have until retirement. And I truly think to myself, like, why would I actually ever want to retire? Like I don't think this is something I would ever want to retire from because it's just great and it works really well for me.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (07:32.738)

We do talk about medicine like it's a prison sentence, right? Like how many years left until we can escape to retire? What is that? Exactly. And I know we all feel the pressure. We live in California, so there's financial pressure. Our debts continue to grow, the expenses go up, but only in healthcare do our reimbursements go down and the time with patients go down. Isn't that crazy? Like, shouldn't you be paid more?

Lauren Hartman, MD (07:39.916)

that. I know.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (08:01.678)

as you have more experience over time. Yes. Right. That's like all industries. I know. Medicine. So we kind of live in this bubble and it's not until we step out and we're like, wait, what? Can we choose to leave? Yes, we can. Yeah, it's very scary. And, you know, both you and I have been in that situation where we started something that we don't have a forecasting for. We've always had a job. We've always had an understanding of a paycheck comes every two weeks.

Lauren Hartman, MD (08:07.509)

I know.

Lauren Hartman, MD (08:16.519)

Drum, isn't it? Yeah.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (08:31.992)

But three years ago you decided to go into private practice. What actually triggered that move for you?

Lauren Hartman, MD (08:40.056)

So it actually just so I started to look at jobs when I knew that that startup wasn't for me. I started to look at jobs. And you know, when I was leaving, someone said to me, Well, if you ever start something, let me know. And I was like, what would that look like? And I started to actually like, okay, I could, you know, I trained at UCSF. I was like, I could go back to UCSF. I could go to Kaiser. I could go to Stanford. Like, you know, we're lucky in the Bay Area that there are a lot of jobs in adolescent medicine. There's a need. So I knew I Could. And I started to look at the jobs. And then I did just start to question like, do I want to work for somebody else at this point in my career? Maybe I actually do want to design it. and so I, to be honest, I went on a yoga and meditation retreat in Costa Rica by myself.

I had never gone on vacation by myself. I sat on the airplane, like, what are you doing? Why didn't you at least bring your sister with you? but I met this woman on my first day and she said to me, just look for the nudges. Just look for the nudges. And I just sort of had this feeling at the end, like, I'm gonna, I'm gonna try this. I'm just going to have fun with it. I love taking care of patients. I always knew that. So I felt like, let's just, yeah, see how this goes.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (10:10.38)

Listen to the nudges. I'm a firm believer of listening to our gut. And I feel like every doctor I've talked to, they've always had an inkling of I should do this. But then they stop themselves with logic. Logic steps in and it's suddenly like they stop listening to what feels good to them and they just go with what quote unquote makes sense. And sometimes that works against us. It works in a way that harms us, where we're not truly doing what would light us up, we're doing the thing that feels like an obligation. And then we're in the cycle of burning out a lot faster because you're not listening to what your spirit is telling you. So it's not weird that you said you went on a retreat and you had clarity because that's when the noise disappears. That's when logic takes a side step and you're truly embracing what feels good in your nervous system and just being guided by that. And I think that's so powerful.

Lauren Hartman, MD (11:04.834)

Yeah, completely. As you were talking, it just felt so many overlaps actually because the word safety came up for me of this fallacy that if I stay in a system that I know that is safe and that is certain and that feels good. And that, you know, kind of breaking out of that somehow feels less safe. And you know, I see it in my work taking care of patients with eating disorders, where sometimes it's like, okay, if I stick on this rigid plan that's safe and that's control and it's like it's not free. And so it's like, yeah, like how to just really kind of break free. And there's a lot of overlap and sort of venturing off and trying something, getting off that eight-lane highway in medicine and doing something different.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (11:54.488)

There's just saying that we feel more comfortable with certainty, even though it's painful, than the pain of uncertainty. I totally know I butchered that. But the point is, even if it's painful, if it's familiar, we'd rather do that because it's predictable. And that is a lot of us in medicine. Whereas the idea of uncertainty is way more painful.

way more scary. And so a lot of us never jump to that side. Because we cannot predict. We cannot control. And that is very scary for many of us who rely on a prescribed path, especially doctors. We've always had a path. We had four years of medical school. We've had many years of residency. We've had, you know, the path to getting a job and all those things. But direct care is a little bit different because it's not prescribed. And it's literally every single practice it's its own variety. You can't copy and paste what we do because it's what we want to design it to be. So my practice is not going to look like another podiatrist. Your practice is not going to look like another one. And I think that's the magical part that we really should embrace. I don't know. What do you think? How does life look like for you now that you're three years into your practice? Is today's practice the same as how you first envisioned it?

Lauren Hartman, MD (13:18.75)

It's a great question. Well, and as you were saying that it was just like, yeah, you, you know, you get so much advice along this journey, as you know. And like, you know, it's just sort of some things stuck. And I remember this friend of mine who is in a very different field. She's in business, but she said to me, like, Lauren, it's time to bet on yourself. You know? And I was just like, Yeah, and I think that is. It's like finding your own path and just continuing to just bet on yourself and trust yourself in that. But I would say it is, I remember on the plane ride home from the yoga retreat, I wrote in a journal, like, what would I love my work to look like in one year? Like kind of had this visual. And to be honest, it's even better than I had written down. I think I just couldn't have imagined just the exciting opportunities and honestly how it would feel. I think that's the piece at the end of the day that is so incredibly nourishing. So I will tell you I

You know, in pediatrics and in adolescent medicine and in big healthcare, like a couple of the things that I used to just be constrained to were one time with patients. So I just really need time. They really do need time to trust you. And rushing through it is just you know you're not getting the information that needs to be said. And so the idea that I can spend time with patients is just the biggest gift ever I will say personally, the other piece is that I was never allowed to take Mondays or Fridays off because like that's when people want to come to the doctor and see the pediatric special specialist. And I'm like, I don't work Fridays, you know, I don't see patients on Fridays, and I can design that, and that is fine.

Lauren Hartman, MD (15:25.336)

You know, I was just able to take the biggest, the longest vacation of my entire career. I could never take more than a week because it was like the coverage, and I was the only adolescent medicine specialist in the area. And I just really have appreciated the fact and the truth that if we as doctors are valuing ourselves and our well-being, like it really shows up in the care. And so I also really want to model that for the young people I work with, like, yeah, we rest, we take care of ourselves. So I I have two kids I can spend time with. I can block time off if I want to spend time with them. So it's just it is it is such a it is the best thing I could have ever imagined for myself to be honest.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (16:18.306)

You made such a good point that we have to model to our patients, to our children, what taking care of yourself looks like. And I feel like our profession does the exact opposite. It forces you to do the impossible. And I always like to bring up where those crazy residency hours come from. It came from a guy who had access to cocaine. And it's like we don't have access to cocaine. What the heck? We're expected to work those long hours and to put our personal lives aside. And I don't want us to forget that that the training came from a place of first of all for men where men had wives at home, but then you know, here we are sitting as women in the field and are still expected to work in the same way as if we had no kids, as if we had no lives, as as if this is all that we did. Playing for seven and that's just not it anymore.

Lauren Hartman, MD (17:15.616)

It's not it and it's not good for anybody. You know, I think that's the piece is it's like who does that benefit? It isn't really not benefiting anybody. Yeah.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (17:26.925)

I mean it benefits your employers because you're just a robot at this point. Or the insurance companies, because they're like, you're just a technician at this point. Just give the injection, write the prescription, you know, call it good. But we're not doing that anymore, are we? I love that. And especially because you are a role model to a a very young population that is gonna look to your guidance and now you're practicing what you preach.

Lauren Hartman, MD (17:30.862)

Correct. Correct.

Lauren Hartman, MD (17:41.4)

We don't do that anymore. Nope.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (17:53.39)

So I wanted to ask you about what the model of your practice looks like. With DPC Direct Primary Care, we understand it as a monthly membership program. And in specialty care, that can look very different. We can offer many things. So what does it look like for you today?

Lauren Hartman, MD (18:10.574)

So, you know, to your point at some point in this conversation, like it's been a bit of a moving evolution in terms of what it looks like. So, you know, I really so I basically I people pay out of network only. People do have a pediatrician or a primary care doctor. So I'm really just there for them generally for the eating disorder or other adolescent concerns that are going on that are just out of the scope of training for the pediatrician or where they just don't have time and where the family wants to be with someone who it's the same person every time and I'm gonna be able to spend time with them. So I bill for my time is how I do it. And then one of the things that I realized I was doing a terrible job at was that I wasn't doing a great job at keeping track of all the other care coordination that is required for someone who has an eating disorder. So there's a lot of team-based care. And so I work closely with therapists and dietitians. And I was having a lot of these conversations that were taking a lot of time out of the patient visit. And I would explain that I would bill for it, but I never was because I would be.

I'd forget, or I wasn't good at the kind of bookkeeping part of it, or I was like, is it? It's fine. It's fine. I just won't bill for it. And so then I started, I think it was last year, like a year ago, to offer to people to have more of a comprehensive treatment plan. and what felt better for me was to give that an option and I don't know if this is the right thing, T, but this is what I've been doing, is give people an option that they can basically pay a monthly fee that includes all of the care coordination and includes the back and forth both with families but also with the team members and the extra stuff, the lab orders, the med, you know, the all these other things.

Lauren Hartman, MD (20:25.866)

And most people do that. I also give families an option because as people get well from their eating disorder, there are a lot less, there's a lot less care coordination that's required. And so I do give them the option of just paying for our visits and having it, you know, kind of putting the comprehensive plan aside and no, and then I'll say I'm gonna bill for my time. And hopefully I do it.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (20:53.454)

Well, to give you some peace of mind, I don't think there is a right way. It's whatever works right now. I mean, there's you navigating it, building it yourself and feeling good about what you build versus somebody telling you what to do. And I think a lot of us don't like that. You know, we don't want to be told what to do. And so I think it's the experience that's making this work so joyful, is that we're in the discovery phase.

We may have learned from other people that what you know, something works for them. And then we do it and then we're like, it doesn't feel good though. We don't, it doesn't make sense, you know, for our specialty. And then like you just do what you gotta do is my story at the end of the day. In your scenario, I do see that having like a packaged plan where you front load somebody who's maybe never seen a specialist because it takes so much time to take care of Yeah.

And so maybe it looks like I don't know a lot about eating disorders, but maybe it's like a three or six month coaching period where you're with them week after week, just so that they can get into the habit of trusting you as their guide. And then you get them to a stabilized place and they have autonomy, they have confidence and tools. And it could just be longevity care at that point where it's monthly maintenance or fee for service, as you say. But again, these are just ideas to roll with. You decide what works for you.

Lauren Hartman, MD (22:19.136)

I love that. Yeah. I love one, I love that idea, but I also love the permission to try it out and to know that we can always evolve it.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (22:31.064)

I think that's what I love most about independent practices is that we get to choose. We're deciding. Yes. And when something doesn't feel good, we can pivot or we can seek expert advice. We can get a consultant, a coach to help with that. Because a lot of times it really comes down to what is the fear that's making us feel this confusion or this conflict within ourselves where it doesn't feel right. And because a lot of times we're using our brain but not our hearts. We're trying to make logic of things that oftentimes your gut's already telling you what to do.

Lauren Hartman, MD (23:07.34)

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And you know, one of the words I'll have in my brain sometimes when I think about my practice is just really wanting it to be sustainable because I'm enjoying it so much. And so I think to your point, it's figuring out the model that works to make it as sustainable as possible.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (23:26.774)

Yeah. Well, sustainability is going to be a membership that's hands down. The evidence shows us historically, if we have a membership, we retain a percentage of people who come into our practice and it builds trust over time. And I think in your specialty, because you are working with a younger population, it takes more touch points to create that trust. And so it's only to your advantage at that point.

Lauren Hartman, MD (23:48.994)

Yeah, yeah. That's great.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (23:52.524)

No, I love being able to see where you're at in your practice after three years. My practice looks very different through my evolution, through my journey, because some days I feel like this and some days I feel like that. Like I don't know. But the fact that I have autonomy is what makes it really fun because I get to make the call. This is my life.

Lauren Hartman, MD (24:12.394)

Completely, completely. And I think I had said to you before we started recording that I I recently came out with a book, which was not on my radar and would never have been something, it wasn't a life goal or something I actually was planning to do. I'll tell you the funny story kind of behind it, but also just

The only reason I I say to my husband all the time, like I would never have done that if I was still a Kaiser. Like I just you just never had the time. Couldn't have carved out the time, but I went on another retreat because now I'm like, there's something to these retreats. Like there's a bit of magic that happens at these things. And I went because as my sister was going through a divorce and turning 50, and I was like, I'm taking you away.

And so we went away and we went to Miraval in Tucson, Arizona. And we're doing like all these different kinds of wellness offerings we did, like equine therapy and healing art therapy. And then one night we met with a psychic, or excuse me, a medium, and she went around the room. She was doing this healing ceremony, and she went around the room and she said, Is it okay if I say what's coming up from your ancestors to me for you? Anyway, she went around and then she got to me and she said, You're a healer, a healer. And they just keep saying, Book, book, June, book, June, book. And she hugged me and she sort of made a writing motion with her hand, and we left. And my sister was like, What do you She meant by book?" And I was like, I have no idea, except I had just written an article that was published in Lancet. And I was like, maybe because that article just got published. And I was on the airplane ride home and I was like, ugh, I was going to do training. I was already actually underway of wanting to train doctors and parents about how to have conversations about weight with their kids and health without creating harm and creating eating disorders. And so I was.

Lauren Hartman, MD (26:27.476)

underway doing a training and then on the airplane ride home I was like maybe it should be a book before it's a training and maybe that actually makes great sense. So I wrote a proposal and it got accepted in June. I signed the contract in June with the publisher which was crazy. but it just came out three months ago and it's been an exciting part of my career that again I never had imagine for myself, but I think it's just the idea that you have autonomy and you can pivot and you can grow and that's really an exciting part of this.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (27:04.758)

I'm so glad you brought that up because I wanted to talk about your book and how that came to be and where are things with it now. So you've had this book published for three months now. You went through a publisher. You didn't self publish then. Correct. Which I wanna learn about because I have that tickle in my brain. also.

Lauren Hartman, MD (27:26.762)

'Cause it's so doable.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (27:29.568)

It's doable. Okay. Well, there you go. And you mentioned that if you were employed, you wouldn't have time. And I conspiracy theory here. I think they don't want you to have time to think for yourself, to create, to make this world a better place. They just want you to be theirs to work for them. And you can say whatever you want to say about that. But I think if they take away your time, they're also taking away your creativity, your ability to put good into the world.

Lauren Hartman, MD (28:01.358)

Couldn't agree more. I realized like I, you know, I had a leadership role in my prior career. And so I did have some time where I was doing non-clinical work, but it was and some scholarly work. but it was never my ideas, you know, someone else's agenda that I was doing these projects. And this was the first time I could really follow the thread of what was showing up in my practice, what I knew people needed. I was hearing the stories from patients about the things their doctor said that made them feel like they needed to change their diet and then develop an eating disorder, or the thing that happened at school. And so I, it really came from the experience in the room. And then yeah, I was able to really follow that if this is needed and I need to I have a duty to the people I work with as patients to like to create something around this. So I just really did have them in my brain as I was working on this and like I have to do it.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (29:12.376)

I feel like I'm going on a retreat with you soon ish. Please. That's amazing. Well you've taken through so much history of where you came to be, where you are today. And I'm wondering what your practice looks like for you in the next couple of years, your trajectory. What's next for you?

Lauren Hartman, MD (29:30.75)

You know, one of the things that I hadn't again, this book at each piece I think brings up really new exciting parts of us. One of the things that I have been doing a lot more recently is talking, talking at schools especially, talking with parents, talking with students about eating disorders and prevention and early intervention. And I have been loving it. You know, I really, and it's one of the most exciting parts. It's like when I'm working because I've been talking to parents a lot and doing a lot of parent parent education. But then when I get to talk to the students, one of them I've talked to at this private school near here, and one of the students is a friend with her mom. And she told me her daughter came home and started to correct the dad about some of the things he was saying in like a body shaming kind of way that was like not supportive of young people developing their body image. And she was like, Dad, like, and I just said, you know, she came home and she was correcting him. And I'm like, wow, this is how we actually change things through the youth. And so I felt really, I feel really excited right now about continuing that and talking with more schools and doing more providing more offerings for them.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (31:01.326)

Love that. That is wonderful. That is nice to be able to just be open to what is possible without being rigid and trying to control everything and making things predictable. So now you're open, you're open for magic, it sounds like.

Lauren Hartman, MD (31:17.518)

I'm listening to it.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (31:21.218)

How did you get patience in your door when you first opened?

Lauren Hartman, MD (31:26.77)

Well, you know, I was practicing in the Bay Area for 10 years before I started my private practice. So, you know, it's this relatively small field, so the kind of word travels a bit. I will say too because my specialty is such that I work with the patient, but I'll talk a lot to the other members in the Child's world. So, you know, I'll talk to the school and I'll talk to the therapist and I'll talk to the dietitian. And so it was actually really a lovely organic referral pathway because I would see a patient, maybe that a therapist would refer to me, and then I'd reach out to their pediatrician who I might not have known, and they're like, I can send my patients with eating disorders to you. That sounds good. And so it sort of Built in that way. I will say though, now like I'm doing these talks and I'll have parents reach out like you gave a talk at my kids' school a couple months ago, and now I'm realizing we need help in that way. so I think it has been somewhat organic and mostly word of mouth. and then I do think some of these talks have been helpful.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (32:53.524)

Was there resistance when you said you were out of network?

Lauren Hartman, MD (32:59.106)

The biggest resistance was with myself, truly. It was the hardest hurdle for me. I think I had to overcome it. I felt I don't know if shame is the word, but I was almost embarrassed about it. And I think I had somehow had this, I felt honorable that the patients used to be able to see me. You know, anyone could see me. And it and what I

Finally I realized it was like, this is a systems problem because the way it was I was working before, it came at a cost to the quality of care that the patients were receiving. It came at a cost to my well-being. And and so I did have to wrestle with that mostly. I also had to wrestle with the fact of thinking.

Well, why would someone pay to see me if they could go to UCSF where there's adolescent medicine or Stanford where there's adolescent medicine? Like, why are they gonna pay to see me? And I kind of almost stopped because when I realized that, I was like, wait a second, this isn't gonna make any sense. And then, you know, I'll hear a lot from patients, but also from the other team members. It's just a different experience for them to be seeing me than it is to be.

in that big system where you know there's long wait lists and they're gonna be seeing a different person each time and they don't feel like they have the time and the you know I can now I can kind of figure out the team that works the best for the people. And so at the end of the day, I was like, I guess someone I had heard someone say you have to stay out of other people's pocketbooks. And I think that was very helpful, like, people can actually prioritize what they want to prioritize. And if that means paying out of network for me, then that's what they're gonna do. I was at my book club last night and someone was talking about their dog who was sick and was like, my gosh, every time I go to the vet it's five thousand, five thousand, ten thousand, ten thousand. And I was like,

Lauren Hartman, MD (35:14.164)

You know, I was just like, what is my problem that I feel bad about charging? But I realize this is the sustainable model and this is the model that allows me to provide the care that I do and I feel really good about the care that I provide and I see people get better. And that is the other piece I think I did not know and I feel like maybe has been studied. You can tell me, but

I do think there's something different. I used to have to drag, like, if I wanted to see both parents on a visit, like it would be a lot of negotiating. Like, really? Is there any way this other parent can come? Mostly it was the mom bringing the kid to the appointment. Now, I think because people are paying for my service, they really value it and they show up. And I see parents showing up at the visit, they're so engaged. And again, that really translates to recovery in my field. So it's like been a beautiful part to just be a part of.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (36:19.628)

Yeah, money is psychology. It's not logical. I mean, I always talk about how a purse can be ten dollars or it can be ten thousand dollars. Why? If they both carry stuff, I don't know. Because there's branding involved and there's identity, you know, who am I if I were to do this? Who am I be if I were to buy that? And I think medical care is the exact same way. Who am I if I pay five hundred dollars into this? I'm more invested in who I am. You know, I care that much.

I want that. And people are just craving that time that you have to offer. And so that's what it selects for that kind of person. And people think that direct care selects for rich people. No, it actually selects for people who are paying attention. Yeah. And I I think everybody wins when the doctor is doing well.

Lauren Hartman, MD (37:05.442)

Yeah, yeah. I think that's really, really true.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (37:09.816)

But we have to identify that first for ourselves that the value we have is truly there. And yeah, it takes time. Sometimes we don't see that when we open our practice. It just takes the, you know, the confirmations from the patients who finally come up and you tell them the price and they're just throwing money at you. They're like, it doesn't even matter. Just tell me what I need to do. Tell me what's the next step because I can't go over there because it's a six month waiting period or, you know, whatever the circumstances are. So you found the value in yourself and that is what makes it most sustainable.

Lauren Hartman, MD (37:46.016)

Yeah, thank you. One of the things I heard you say on one of your earlier podcasts was that and I might butcher your quote, but it was something like just because it's uncomfortable doesn't mean it's wrong. And you know, I have felt like, yeah, this is a part

that feels a little less comfortable, even with the book coming out. I mean, I publisher publishing companies don't do that much marketing for you. So you have to be the one who's really like, hey, you know, like go into, you know, like really talking about it and somewhat marketing yourself and marketing your product. And that was uncomfortable for me. And I think one of the things I've appreciated is it's like a, it's like flexing a muscle, you know, it's like it gets and I heard it gets less discomfort less uncomfortable with time and you just like really gets yeah gets gets smoother the more you do it.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (38:47.586)

Yes. And in business ownership, you need to get into the habit of being uncomfortable. That's just kind of what it is because you get these challenges and you're like, and now what? But then with time, you're like, I can bounce back faster. Yeah. So I love your journey. I love where you're going. And I really love that you're able to explore your creative side and create a tangible book that is going to help so many families out there.

So thank you so much for sharing your time. If the doctors want to get in touch with you, what is the best way?

Lauren Hartman, MD (39:20.758)

So I have Instagram, which is new ever since I wrote the book. Everyone's like, you have to get on Instagram. So it's Lauren Hartman D. And I have my private practice is Aspen Grove Adolescent and Young Adult Medicine. So they can find me there.

Tea Nguyen, DPM (39:35.722)

Awesome. Thank you so much for being here with me and with us. And for everybody else who's listening, I will catch you next week.